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Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?

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Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?

by
Open Source Integrators, Maxime Chambreuil
- 18/02/2020 03:39:00
@Landis,

The only consideration that matters is that it is useful. If it is, then people will go write and read the documentation and this initiative will be a success.

It would be interesting to know what tools functional people are using internally, the adoption rate, their feedback, etc.

We, at OSI, use MediaWiki internally and adoption rate is close to 100% even if the usage could be more uniform.

MAXIME CHAMBREUIL
PROJECT MANAGER/CONSULTANT
O: 1.855.877.2377 EXT. 710
M: 602.427.5632
E: MChambreuil@OpenSourcelntegrators.com
P.O. BOX 940, HIGLEY, AZ 85236


On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 3:56 PM Landis Arnold <larnold@nomadic.net> wrote:
Maxime et all,

The issue page you reference is quite extensive, and yes, that is a good basis for documentation, though I worry about it getting lost when an "issue" is marked as closed.  Theoretically the documentation would be built into a "longer lasting place".

Many "Readme" pages are very brief and would benefit from additional information.  Also, since requirements change over time/ branch to branch, it would seem good to have good documentation built into Readme/Doc sets in different branches.  Conversations between branches would of course need to take place. 

I do note that GitHub itself has a Wiki Feature that might be more appropriate than a separate MediaWiki?  What are the considerations?
The Github wiki is not "branched" and I could see some value for that, so support for such would need to be built into a Wiki Structure itself (whichever wiki).
 If the WIKI have a "branching" type structure it would also be able to do much of the work.  I expect that it would tend to get stuck in either  a "current branch" or perhaps some "out of date situation".  It does seem that a tree structure could be built on a Wiki to reflect variations in Branch Generations.

Is there a way to have "conversations" around a Wiki?  
Perhaps just an OCA "Community" Repository using the GitHub Wiki and Issue methodology (change some tagging terms) as well as a maintaining a code repository that reflects wider information resources.

Not small subjects, but I do think that "coding standards" can have corollaries in the realms of documentation and community ecosystem.

I will look at the media wiki?  Is there a OCA GitWiki that is in existence now that might work as a testing ground in comparison?

best to all,

Landis Arnold
Nomadic Inc.
Colorado, USA

From: "Maxime Chambreuil" <mchambreuil@opensourceintegrators.com>
To: "Odoo Community Association, (OCA) Contributors" <contributors@odoo-community.org>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2020 7:42:25 AM
Subject: Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?

Hello,
Yes, wiki page by addon and module description would overlap because today that is the only piece of documentation we have.

Tomorrow, functional and technical people can collaborate on the documentation in the wiki and the developer can then copy/paste it in the readme folder.

In the future we can have various types of content that will have their own template:
and the idea is to inter-reference them: i.e. link to the concept page from the scenario to allow fluid reading but still allow newcomers to click the link to learn the concept.

MAXIME CHAMBREUIL
PROJECT MANAGER/CONSULTANT
O: 1.855.877.2377 EXT. 710
M: 602.427.5632
E: MChambreuil@OpenSourcelntegrators.com
P.O. BOX 940, HIGLEY, AZ 85236


On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 5:36 AM Jean-Charles Drubay <jc@komit-consulting.com> wrote:
I also think that wiki and README overlap. If we feel the need of a wiki page for a module, it's probably because the README is missing information. At module level, the necessary documentation probably does not justify setting up a wiki page(s).

But a forum would bring benefit for functional contributors to discuss requirements freely from the constraints, WUI and rules of github and frontier between OCA / Odoo SA code.

Regarding Odoo and stackoverflow like "forum", I imagine that this can be addressed by the existing Odoo help/forum: https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1 and it does not have to be an OCA tool.

This being said, maybe Odoo SA could setup a forum with a more traditional forum WUI and features. Because it does not seem to be something which OCA specific and Odoo could use this for discussions on future features. I imagine the that the percentage of discussions that would be OCA specific would be just a part of the discussions. Odoo used to have such a forum long ago ... 

We could search for support from Odoo SA for admin and moderators for such a forum to be back online.


On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 3:22 PM Lorenzo Battistini <elbaddy@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Maxime,
wouldn't this overlap with modules READMEs?


On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 18:51, Maxime Chambreuil <mchambreuil@opensourceintegrators.com> wrote:
Hello,
Do we have someone willing to help on administrating/structuring MediaWiki at https://en.odoodoc.org?

Please reply in private. Thanks!

MAXIME CHAMBREUIL
PROJECT MANAGER/CONSULTANT
O: 1.855.877.2377 EXT. 710
M: 602.427.5632
E: MChambreuil@OpenSourcelntegrators.com
P.O. BOX 940, HIGLEY, AZ 85236


On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 8:52 AM Landis Arnold <larnold@nomadic.net> wrote:
Lek, Bill and others,

I was somewhat expecting some responses.

My opinion anyway, that this is pretty emblematic of the OCA "functional" issue.  Lots of conversation "about them" but little visible response "to them".  3 functionals chimed in and no response other than this small micro eddy.

Perhaps we coukd form a sub-group and see of we can outline issues, resources and methods for involvement to have clear paths and bridges between elements.

Fog may not seem thick when you are in a forest.  From the outside, it is hard to find the landing strip none the less.

Thoughts?  Methods?  I did log into the wiki referenced above.  Is there one "GitHub Issue" set that coukd be used as a focal point for discussion?

hope to hear more.

Landis Arnold


From: Lek Ecosoft <wipawiij@ecosoft.co.th>
Sent: Feb 13, 2020 7:57 PM
To: Contributors
Subject: Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?

Hello,


I am pure blood functional, who cannot even query database. 

Thank you all to talk about this topic and share many ideas/suggestions. This is a good example of opening space to talk and share but email or mailing list flows and gone, not suits as knowledge and content management.

IMHO, functional consists of End Users and Implementor.

If we talk about an End user, we should have place to chat and ask + knowledge or Content management because they want to decide to use our app or not. If so, how to use it > This should be Easy to access and find information > User documents, user manual.

If we talk about functional Implementor, they should work as a team with technical. I think this group doesn't need Easy tool but it should be simple tool and simple way to work together. Functional spec or Requirements Spec is out of date for agile methodology, no longer writing this for technical. We need to discuss and share different aspects and ideas from Technical and functional then summarise, code and Test absolutely.

> No doubt for runbot for testing but discussion, I would say

> Wiki is easy but not in line with github which is powerful for technical and have to manage?

> +1 github issue and link to google doc/sheet.

Personally, github itself look scary for non-technical but not too difficult to use. Functional who really want to be in, they got strong passion to learn 'new world of techies'. They open thier mind to give and take. On the other hands, github will filter out Newbies because its structure. We have to accept that github born for technical. (Of I am not wrong)

+1 Forum no reason, just experience it.

... TOTB...

1. Let's try to change this thread topic to be Does OCA "really" need implementor functional and user?

 - If the answer is no, it's crystal clear. No need any action.
 - If your answer is yes, I believe you will find the way to let them it and be a part of team.

2. Opensource is an area of technical or hybrid functional while Proprietary is an area of Functional, is this true?

Last but not least, shall technical open mind to learn a new world of Functional?

Thanks all.

Regards,

Wipawii

www.ecosoft.co.th

Your ERP Partner

On Fri, 14 Feb 2020, 06:12 Bill Ennals, <bill@billennals.net> wrote:
Hi Community,
I’m also ‘mostly' functional.  I have no formal IT qualification or education but have self-taught the basics of administering a Ubuntu server and an Odoo CE installation for a small not-for-profit business (reversegarbageqld.com.au) in Australia.  I can’t really code, but I’m a stubborn googler and can do some low-level tinkering and can sometimes get to where I’m aiming for, sometimes not.

It’s taken many years and we’re still only 50% implemented - no POS, public facing website, ecommerce and accounting yet, though all of that should be ready in the next six months.  Started on V7, open upgraded to v8, then leap frogged to V11 via a gruelling export/import process.  It’s been a crazy and unsustainable way to do it in many respects, but our hope is that the efficiency gains of using an integrated ERP will help to generate enough operational profit to be able to engage a professional local implementer, the costs of which (up until now at least) have been prohibitive.

I agree with Landis about the welcoming landing place, and through all of this, the thing that I have most missed is a healthy discussion forum.  Having to piece together clues from the Odoo help forum (which is mostly awful), Stack Overflow, this mailing list and the patchy official documentation has absorbed hundreds of hours of my time, often for no return.  Sure, a comprehensive wiki would be awesome, but that would seem to require a gargantuan effort to make it any more useful than pointers to the current Github repositories.  Github is a little daunting and opaque for non-IT professionals, but it’s not terrible and a healthy community forum with a few good stickies about how to approach navigating the various parts of the Odoo universe for newbies would make it far less daunting.  If the standard of the ‘readme’s was improved, I think a separate wiki might be unnecessary duplication.

Lastly (sorry for the long email), one comparable experience I’ve had lately is mucking about with custom roms on mobile devices, which I know nothing about apart from what I’ve learned from xda-developers.com.  Although it’s far from perfect, if I spend an hour there researching a particular topic or problem I’m having, I can feel pretty confident about whether it’s something that is worth pursuing, or if it’s just going to be a waste of my time, and therefore something I should drop altogther.  A combination of the stickies and guides for newbies, and the vibrant participation of the community there enables that.  I rarely feel that way after an hour of trying to figure out if a particular thing is possible in Odoo - more often I’m left with a bunch of unresolved questions.  Obviously the xda forums member base is huge, but if the Odoo claim about 4 million users is true, then a proper discussion forum should have something to work with - no?

Bill.








On 14 Feb 2020, at 12:21 AM, Landis Arnold <larnold@nomadic.net> wrote:

Well, Being mostly "functional" I would say, first off, there needs to be a place to go and get information, ask questions, profer advise.  Documentation is important, even in Wiki form, but most important is a true and welvoming landing pad and place.  Branches should go out from there to subjects of the different repositories.

As an example.  Information and sharing about upgrade paths and methods.  Fundamental changes, for users and system implementers about requirement changes generation to generation...  Is it possible to skip versions in upgrade sequencing.  say v 8, v10, v12, v14?  If so how?

"Open" needs to be open and not obscure.  Installations and upgrades can be methodical and complex, but they must also be understandable. 

Customization, which is essence, is what OCA is about, should be welcome, and also seen to be something that users can also do without creating a whole repository and running through a week of testing and approvals.  Interface changes, as an example, like moving an "add task" button to a project, or rearranging a menu interface etc.

And on bigger customizations, how to have "funcionals" express a desire for a more efficient work flow.  A "wish list" is different than a "issue" until it becomes one.

Anyway, it is an important subject, how to integrate "functionals" which really everyone is on some level.

Landis Arnold
Nomadic Inc
Colorado USA


Sent from Nine
From: "Pedro M. Baeza (Tecnativa)" <pedro.baeza@tecnativa.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 6:47 AM
To: Contributors
Subject: Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?


Jean-Charles, here there's no such OCA strategy of not wanting functional people, just as Lois says: there's no more physical time to perform what you want to do to attract more people. I still think laziness is a point, because some functional people have already contributed and be part of the community with a low barrier, but it's very easy to say "I'm not able to contribute because things are not easy". Think that we are all employees of a company that pays our time and have a lot of duties, and some of us have invested spare free time for trying to raise OCA, but this time is limited. So any of you can apply for being in the OCA board next year and conduct this, or simply arise at contributor for that specific task this year. My colleagues at board will love some help on this (I'm not anymore there due to the time restrictions I have and after being there during 3 years).

Regards.
<span id="cid:D10EFA06-18B5-49B7-9C55-57158B7F1E0A@home.gateway"><attachment>

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